Phil 0:00

welcome to the Opinionated SEO Today, I have Hassan with me and we're gonna talk about all kinds of things like content marketing, ai, of course, and anything else that comes up, especially his journey as, someone who's been in somewhat of a hybrid role in his. Way he's worked SEO and the technical side of things. And So we'll jump into that, but as I always like to start, let's do a couple questions, uh, from my pod decks then we'll jump into the SEO things. So welcome to the show.

Hassan ud-deen 0:30

Thanks, Phil. Nice to be here.

Phil 0:33

If you could try out a job for a day just to see if you'd like it, what would that job be?

Hassan ud-deen 0:38

Ooh. Th these are really interesting questions. Uh, They're good. investment banker, hear so much about it. I wanna know. It's got, there's numbers involved. Um, yeah. Uh, or maybe data analyst. That's the tie between them.

Phil 0:55

And if you had to go like complete opposite, like no computer involved, what, what kind of job would you do?

Hassan ud-deen 1:01

Ooh. I think mechanic. I think being a mechanic would be an interesting, interesting thing to do.

Phil 1:07

work on like classic cars or something like that, solving problems. It's still the same as seo. You're still solving problems trying to figure out how to make it run more efficiently. Right.

Hassan ud-deen 1:16

I guess it's more physically tangible and, uh, the, the end result is, uh, palpable. Right? Like you, you can see what's happening and. There's a visible result attached to it. But, uh, yeah, you could, you could apply the same problem solving principles.

Phil 1:29

Our garbage hasn't been picked up for like two days. They're running late in us thinking. is that one of those jobs that, you know, people joke about in high school? Oh, yeah. You know, don't, don't become a, a trash guy. You know, that's, that's what happens if you don't go to college and these guys are making six figures and, they, they just need more people. I'm thinking is that, is that like the dream job now?

Hassan ud-deen 1:48

Yeah, it's, it's so true. Cause that's like happened in the uk. Like we've, we've had the same joke. There's been week, there's actually been week periods of weeks on end where the garbage hasn't been collected. And, uh, It's mainly due to the binmen going on strike and they're asking for more money and they're actually getting it. And, uh, their, their hours are good. Like these guys are waking up at like 6:00 AM and finishing by two and, uh, they're, they're earning pretty, pretty graduate salaries, so

Phil 2:14

Okay. May maybe we're in the wrong business, or That's, that's the new side. Hustle working on, on garbage trucks and doing SEO on the weekends. I don't know,

Hassan ud-deen 2:25

Reverse the rolls right.

Phil 2:26

Exactly. speaking of jobs, what's the oddest job you've ever taken to earn a buck?

Hassan ud-deen 2:33

Ooh, this takes me back. Um, I thought I was suited to this job. Turns out I was a bit of a mismatch. and I lasted. I didn't even last the whole day, to be honest. I talk about this sometimes. I think I've mentioned on my blog or somewhere else. Uh, I lied to my parents when I started this whole journey of freelancing and, and, uh, getting into the game. I actually did take this job, so it wasn't a complete lie, but I pretended to keep doing it. And the job was, um, you know, being one of harassing people for, for charity, right? So working in the town center, I think it was a company called Oxfam, and, it was a pro cold approaching people and asking them if they want to sign up for a monthly subscription to providing water rate. So it wasn't really a bad cause, but it just, so, it just felt so wrong to me as a person who. You know, I've always been a bit introverted, bit of a bookworm, and here I am in, in the middle of, town just approaching people and asking them if they wanna give money to charity. So that was one of the hardest jobs that I've had. And I quit like before the day ended.

Phil 3:29

Wow. So, uh, what was the motivation to go freelance then for you?

Hassan ud-deen 3:34

Yeah. I dunno if you've heard of the book, uh, the Millionaire Fast Lane by, I'm JTA Marco. Yeah, that I, I kind of picked that up when I was 15. So very young, very impressionable, and I was geared a bit towards the idea of, entrepreneurship or just business or, and marketing in general. I always liked marketing and copy or the art of writing. So, um, picked up this book. the value of business, a lot of my friends, I was the only one outta my friends who had this kind of interest at, at, at that point. Now everyone seems to be interested in entrepreneurship or freelancing or a side hustle, but I'd say like 10 years ago it wasn't as hyped up or, a, as a. Consistent theme as it is now. So, um, I was just interested in gaining skills and freelancing seemed like one of those ways. As someone who had no degree was very, very young, very little work experience. I thought, hey, I can cut my teeth into something and maybe leverage those skills in the future, to do something else or sell something. And, uh, that's where it started.

Phil 4:29

I think years ago they were called consultants and that was the the term that people used when they got fired and they were contracting for someone or they were out on their own. And that's evolved into side hustles or entrepreneur. Cause I think entrepreneur had somewhat of a negative connotation and they're like, oh, you're gonna fail. But in today's day and age no, it's, it's like, it's okay. It's okay to be an entrepreneur.

Hassan ud-deen 4:54

Yeah, it's almost glamorized. Right? And um, and I You said consultant, you're so right, because I think about them times. I think it was around when Frank Kern was like the, the in guru then, and he was pitching the whole become a consultant thing. So he reminds me. Yeah. Yeah. It's funny how the terminology evolved.

Phil 5:11

I think it takes a very certain type of person. It's hard for that to be a business,

Hassan ud-deen 5:16

Yeah, it's true.

Phil 5:17

So then where did you pick up all of your SEO from when you first started?

Hassan ud-deen 5:22

Yeah, I had an interesting journey. Like I often talk about, like, I wear both hats of content marketing person and also seo. I'm the lead content marketing manager and seo, uh, company. For me, the gateway was at content writing itself. So the freelance scale that I focused on, you know, when I lied to my parents, quote unquote lied to my parents, I spent time going to the library every day. Um, John Morrow, I dunno if you you're familiar with him. I took his guest blogging course. it was just like an introductory guide to. Getting your first guest posts out. and that was my first taste of, publishing online and getting some proven samples out there. And my intention wasn't even to get traffic, it was just to have like samples of work. And, by the time I completed the course, I took it to heart. you know, one of the themes of the course was that if you want. A great sample that gets you hired and showcases your skills, just go bigger and better than everyone else. And this was like when the skyscraper technique was a big thing, you know, going really above and beyond with content. So like, I think I wrote like a 10,000 word guide for my first guest post. And, um, it was a lot of effort. a lot of fire under my belly at the time as well, cuz I, I was having difficulties living at home that actually helped me secure my first clients, uh, in content. For content writing clients. So I secured my first content writing clients from that. And little by literally, I realized from the analytics on the my WordPress site that, hey, I'm getting traffic. So I was just from, purely from the back links. Like I knew, no, nothing about title tags or on page seo. I was literally, I literally just had, you know, Backlinks coming to the site. And I was getting like 1500, 1600 visits a month. And this was like when guest blogging was starting to die out. It was, it was an overused tactic. So even then I realized like the value of content for seo, for traffic generation and organic leads, and that spiraled the, that kickstarted like the rest of the journey.

Phil 7:13

when you think about it, with Google's updates with helpful content update most recently. The fact that they've gotten rid of a lot of their experience metrics like page speed and such just goes to show you that that original high quality content is still like the most impactful thing you could do to your site.

Hassan ud-deen 7:32

Yeah, I agree. And, uh, it's something like, it's almost comical in, in s e i, in my opinion, because you get everyone hearing about the latest update and SEO start losing their hair and there's 101. Tweets about the same micro detail of Google did this and Google did that, and John Mueller said this, and John Mueller said that. But ultimately, when you kind of read behind the lines, uh, and, and you dissect what's being said, it's kind of the similar theme. Again, you're seeing a similar theme of we're refining content, we're making sure that the people who, um, if you know in Google's. Own words from their actions as well. Like they're just making sure that content is of a high caliber, high quality, trustworthy, and coming from an authoritative, expert, right? So that that's something consistent that I, that I see happening and that people aren't gaming the system. and, and I see you just constantly return to that. More and more we're seeing like a usability player role. And then also the, the games is leveling up as well. People are. SEOs and content people are becoming savvy. they upskilling in different ways. People are using original research for back links. You got, um, ferry Kazaki Search from Search Intelligence is one of my favorite examples. But, you know, adding that creative element to SEO and content marketing, you see that happening as well. And I think that's where some of the future is.

Phil 8:48

So how did you get from like Good to Great? From a content marketing standpoint?

Hassan ud-deen 8:54

Yeah, I think, I think great's always, um, I'm always learning, so dunno if I'm great yet definitely would aspire to be as best as I can, uh, in my role. but it definitely had some proven results. I think for me it was. Learning the skills that you need in the time that you need them, um, based on the business' needs. Right? I wrote a blog, uh, blog post on my own website, like thinking about, and I didn't realize this until I sat down to write like it as a case study, what sometimes it's not an obvious insight that. Is usually propagated in the SEO circle. So for example, attra, which was the previous company I worked for, the business model played a interesting role in how we, use SEO and use content to. rank and also spread our message, right? So it's a dual, dual pronged approached, so the way to works is that it's a, it has a network of partners who resell the software as part of their implementation, right? So it's a learning management system and there's over like 80 partners who sell our, our software. And one of the things that I was actually. Proud about what, once I reflected on it was that we came up with a little mini syndication network where we gave all our partners content and they would link back to our content, on the, on the original Toro website. However, it was a win-win for everyone. So our partners who had their own clients and in their own issues looked like experts because they published content about learning in the e-learning industry. And then they linked back to like a pillar page or a few other pages that we had that were attempting to rank for certain keywords. and that was born out of adapting the strategy and being a bit resourceful based on what I had, what I could do, and, and looking at the needs of the business and any advantages there. So I think adaptivity is, is one of those things. There's no clear cut answers for everything.

Phil 10:39

Yeah. I think the reliance or, Looking at things like your partners and different companies that you do work with is probably one of the most underutilized link building tactics. even going back to if you're a local plumber and you go to a small shop for a lot of your supplies, there's definitely. interlinking opportunities there that can help. And it's local and it's contextual. And if you really like the types of materials they have and you're a good customer, there's definitely opportunities in there. And then, you know, scale that to enterprise level and every company has all these partners that they work with and there's no reason why you can't leverage that or create content, like you said, that ends up being syndicated. But you are the mothership.

Hassan ud-deen 11:27

Yeah, exactly. You put it beautifully. and as you. Breach the enterprise circles, like the, the orders of magnitude increasing and the, it's like the butterfly effect, right? Like any changes in implementations you make have a, such a drastic effect and the ROI just becomes greater. So it's, it's, it's really cool to, to kind of use that creativity.

Phil 11:45

And now you've kind of touched on working with like the partners, but when you're doing the content marketing, what's your type of approach for really being able to connect to your audience?

Hassan ud-deen 11:54

Yeah. It's always been a match between the messaging of the organization and what most of our users, the messaging that me users have seen, uh, in the marketplace. Right? So, for example, I, I'll go back to Tora and I can give an example here, uh, hack the box if you'd like. But, um, One of the things that we, Tora introduced new products, right? And, and, and unified them under a suite. But you could say they breached into the territory of category creation. Because you have employee experience software, you have concepts like employee experience and talent management. And we concocted a. A term we coined the concept of talent experience and what that, what that meant by our definition was uniting, the key factors that engage employees and make people wanna learn, make pe you know, increase retention at a company. And, the approach was a lot of research, speaking to customers, listening to our customer stories, and then picking out like the little. Consistencies and picking out the little patterns and threads that I saw customers say, or pains they expressed. And usually you, the devil's in the details here, and you find consistent themes and patterns, and then you can integrate that into your messaging. you can build contrarian narratives on that. Uh, and you then you have an opinionated or interesting thing to say, right? You're not just, um, another voice or another company with a megaphone. Saying, Hey, this is good, this is bad. You actually have a unique stance or relevant stance to your audience. So that's something I, I still love to do. I still love to do case studies and, and speak to customers because that's how you, I think you keep your ear to the ground as an SEO and as as a content person.

Phil 13:38

Yeah. And, and rely on that sales team to tell you what's not working, what those objections are out

Hassan ud-deen 13:43

Yeah. Yeah, totally.

Phil 13:45

they'll go on and on about that. But at the end of the day, that might also be something that your product team and you can work together on and help build something that solves a problem that nobody really realized was out there.

Hassan ud-deen 13:59

Yeah. Um, and like speaking of like content strategy, like we, that even inspired like a, a competitor or alternatives type content strategy. So, you know, Tora versus, um, I think mood was one of our biggest ones. I think we still rank on page one for Tora versus Moodle. I haven't checked in a while, but Moodle was one of our biggest competitors at the time. So we did a post where we really broke down in depth, Versus Tora, what's unique about us and we're positioning ourselves as the enterprise solution, which we, which we were at the time. so that's another. way in which content and SEO was leveraged, was dual wielded, you could say, to, to to fuel legion. And I think that was one of our highest, when on a first interaction base, uh, in Google Analytics, um, that was consistently referring MQs, uh, and, and, demo demo requests to the tow choice sales team.

Phil 14:51

this leads me into the most favorite thing that we always get to talk about, which is ai generative content. And that's probably a perfect example of something where the AI tool would completely fail at, I don't care. how much data you feed it. It just doesn't have the contextual understanding or the in-depth product knowledge or maybe even the right information to create something that's, that's actually convincing and easy to use.

Hassan ud-deen 15:21

Yeah. Yeah.

Phil 15:22

what are your thoughts then? What's, what's the AI content tools gonna be doing for people besides cluttering up the web?

Hassan ud-deen 15:29

Yeah, it's, it's, I see it going in a few directions. I see it being leveraged a lot for micro content tasks like editing, creating a certain tone of voice, um, quick research. Getting a draft up really quick. Uh, as you said, like the, um, the, the things that require detailed analysis or. Extensive product knowledge, uh, marketplace awareness, um, ingenuity and creativity. I don't think you're gonna you anytime soon anyway. I don't think you're gonna be able to leverage AI for that. And in terms of the wider landscape of SEO and content combined, I think one of the main things is gonna be, that's gonna help marketers stand out is, uh, original research. So it's something that we're working on at Hack the Box, like we have two gated reports, uh, on the go. We've we're surveying our audience to get insights on specific topics, um, and. That's something that AI can't do. You can't survey, you know, 10,000 people and then break down their insights and do all the data analysis for you. You can assist probably in some of the micro steps, but on the micro level, it's, it's not gonna be able to do that. And then even before you take those steps towards such research, you need to know like what kind of, topics or themes you're picking at. So for example, one of the ones we're potentially picking at is like skills acquisition in cybersecurity. it's just something that, it's very nuanced. and so that's that. And, uh, l m is not gonna be able to, you know, it's, it's a task and l l m won't be able to perform just yet. And, uh, yeah, I, I think as a content marketer, I think it's one of the, one of the best things to kind of invest in at this point because, um, if you. Look at off page SEO as well. It's great photo for back links. Uh, it's unique content from a content marketing perspective, and it's something that an AI tool can't do. So from a job security perspective, if you've got that skill, you're less likely to be replaced, in my opinion.

Phil 17:31

and you had mentioned this before, you know, creating a term and, and that's something that I pitch heavily. You know, if you're first to market and this, there's no search volume, that's okay. But in three years I. Is there gonna be a ton of search volume? Because now you are a regular phrase and I think Spark Toro did that, with Rand Fishkin. I mean, that was basically, they created a whole segment of research that didn't really exist, and so they didn't do s e O because. they, they really had to do more marketing than anything, let people know that this exists because people weren't searching for it. And I think that's the other area that AI will never be able to do because if there's no information on it, how are you going to generate anything from it? So if it comes from your head, it comes from these internal discussions and creative, uh, groups coming together and focus groups and, and all of that. This is all nothing that's out there that AI can get its hands on. and yeah, maybe you can help summarize what you put together or create bullet points out of it, but at the end of the day, it's not gonna be able to create it.

Hassan ud-deen 18:39

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And I, I think the gap will widen between people who are able to engineer and like create and. Extract these unique insights and, and unique messages from, from their companies, from their thought leaders, from their subject matter experts versus people who are just rehashing the cheap, low end kind of s e o e blog post that we see everywhere. Right? So, and there's a fine line between doing both. Like you can. Do an s e blog post and insert your messaging and, and have a product led approach as well. but again, like I, I think you're gonna start seeing that fine line, become a lot more apparent, uh, in, in the coming months and years, uh, with, with AI content.

Phil 19:19

And then it comes down to the skillset of the individual person. And I know you kind of. Talked about a bit of your journey, you know, starting out more as that freelance role and figuring things out and the content side, and slowly adding the seo. Would you do it differently if you were to start over again today?

Hassan ud-deen 19:36

It's an interesting question. I think one of the things I really enjoyed and only did in the last year or so was just take it on a couple of agency gigs. and I really enjoyed that because a part of, I think I have a, a part of me that's a bit of a data geek. I love looking at Google search consult, seeing a lot of properties and then digging around and seeing, hey, okay, did there was an update in September or March and. eight out of the 10 properties in this agencies, Google Search Console, they're all showing similar trends and patterns of what's going on here. Right. that's something I wish I did more or because, In an agency environment, you, you're just subject to so much different industries and, and the learning is just, it's brutal, but it's, it's, it's amazing at the same time. So, I even have it on my cv, a resume and apply for jobs that I'm a bit skills obsessed or I'm a fi to learn. I'm a, I'm a learning addict. Uh, so I, I just love digging into data, having new insights and going out and practicing something or just having an excuse to go, to go. Um, Try something out. so I think an agency environment is the, is is the perfect place for that. So I'm actually grateful that I had that experience, recently. but that's something I probably wish I did more. And, Yeah, I had some great mentors along the way as well. Uh, I worked with Tommy, Tommy Walker. and that was really early. Um, that was like within a couple of years. I had a, a brief, uh, stint with him at Shopify Plus. just like the, the caliber of editor that he is was, was really uplifting, uh, taught me a lot about. How to approach the page and, you know, the ethics of content and creating standards for your writers and having, you know, above going above just a default style guide and having, a unique way of your, your brand's dna, right? Your, your content d n. So those kind of, I was subjected to that early. Uh, thanks to mentors like him. Uh, still speak to him here and there today, but, Yeah, I, I think I wouldn't change too much apart from having a, a bit more, uh, exposure to diverse industries to see different patterns and trends.

Phil 21:33

I think the agencies are underrated as far as an educational opportunity or to jumpstart a career. You really get. Well, and it depends on which agency, but you really get experience in everything from e-commerce to local sites, to enterprise, to small mom and pops. depending on the agency, they might take it all on. You might be exposed to international SEO one day and the next day, you're working on something completely different and you get to see what works, what doesn't, and the collective experience from the people that work there.

Hassan ud-deen 22:07

Yeah. Yeah. And like if you, your only experience is B2B SaaS and then you gotta jump into e-commerce or you know, a casino, a brutal YM y L industry, like, know, casino or something, one, you might not be fit for it. And if you've already had that experience, you can parlay that, that experience into, your current role. Right. So it it, it's really helpful to, to have that experience. And, uh, I advocate if somebody was starting now, I, I, I'd advocate just even a, even a year or so, or whatever time they can put in an agency, in a good agency anyway, is time well spent for learning.

Phil 22:40

So what other ways would you have someone who's just starting out, maybe they're about to graduate college or they're skipping college and they want to jump right into it. Where would you tell them to start and get those skills?

Hassan ud-deen 22:51

Yeah, funny question. I'm gonna put myself on blast here, but, um, uh, I would, I, I'd say go out and build your own project. So, um, have a niche There's a whole niche in SEO that you are at, anyone most people are familiar with. It's just like building niche websites, ranking them and selling them. Website flipping. I'd go and follow them guys because they have a different way of approach and thinking Because it's a full spectrum, right? They're doing content strategy, they're doing the hiring, they're optimized, they have a monetization strategy. I think that's really a really cool project to start if you are starting out, if you have capital, buy one, if, if you can, if not, build one from scratch. You both are good experiences, in my opinion. I'd say to do both. and that's where, that's, that's where I'd encourage users to start. It's funnily enough, I am actually gonna eat my own dog food soon. I've launched a website in the e-commerce space. it's just a test website for SEO and marketing purposes, and to kind of build out in public. so that's something I'm excited to kind of share, hoping to document my journey on YouTube. So, gonna, gonna take my own advice there.

Phil 23:49

we'll put links here in the show notes to it so people can follow you along. Is it, is it live right now? Can people

Hassan ud-deen 23:55

It's not live at the moment. I don't wanna share it cuz I don't wanna skew the results. But, uh, I do want to share like the, the journey in terms of analytics and the Google search consult data and, what initiatives I'm doing. I do have a YouTube channel, uh, that I'll be sharing the journey on, and I'm my LinkedIn, so it'd be, it'd be cool if you could, plug that in and then people can follow me along. So hopefully launch that in the next couple of weeks.

Phil 24:14

we'll definitely do that. My number one advice has always been to someone who wants to get into it is build a website. Start there and you're gonna start asking questions, and that's the right way to do it is ask a lot of questions, try things out. I've got a website that I use that just has AI content and it's got some stuff on there from three years ago and some stuff from a couple weeks ago. And it's very interesting to see how Google reacts to different types of content, copy, paste versus edited. Versus outsourced. And. it's just a playground is really what it is. And I highly suggest having, at the very least, a playground, but there's a reason why we often don't see a whole lot of very, very senior SEOs is because they've got their own project, an affiliate marketing project, or a coaching project or something like that. That's where they're making their money because it's their own money and they can grow it with as much effort as they want to put into it.

Hassan ud-deen 25:12

Yeah. Yeah, that, that's awesome. And I totally agree. and it also benefits, again, your skills and as you said, like you'll always learn from, the reaction of your sandbox side as well. So it's, it's a win-win in my opinion. Yeah.

Phil 25:25

Is there, um, anything in kind of the current roles that you're doing now that's kind of exciting that you're working on?

Hassan ud-deen 25:31

Yeah. I'd say for me it's the, uh, the biggest things are the gated report. the gated kind of research, the original thought leadership that we're working on, crafting that messaging, going after a more B2B audience. So for example, I hacked the box where at we've historically been A renowned provider of cybersecurity training. Uh, we've been known to make cyber security a fun and engaging experience, a gamified platform, is what a lot of consumers know us for. and that's bridged into it being a platform now for, the B2B world. So, Enterprise teams taking on, I'm actually writing a case study about this, but en enterprise teams taking on the, hack the box platform to train their users in very technical, hands-on skills. so that's something I, I'm, I'm really passionate about. I, I find it very interesting and above all, uh, conducting the original research behind that and, uh, getting the message out there to people and, and the wider cyber sector community about how, Users are behaving in terms of learning skills, acquisition in a different industry, in, in cybersecurity. So yeah, that, that's something I'm really passionate, about and, uh, looking forward to working on in our current work. And also, we're fleshing out our content team. so that's something I'm really excited about. We're launching a contributor program, hiring guest writers, and also bring, we're gonna be bringing on a full-time, hire soon for the content marketing role. so yeah, fleshing that out. it's really exciting, very fast paced and, a lot of moving components, but, we're seeing drastic roi. Yeah, so like, I think why or why it's already been like 150% increase on like blockage views and, non-brand clicks even, which is something I'm really over the moon about as an seo. So, um, seeing non-brand clicks improve that much, it's quite good to see. Yeah.

Phil 27:10

yes. Cybersecurity is one of those fields that I don't see slowing down anytime soon.

Hassan ud-deen 27:18

Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's evolving constantly. And that's the, uh, the thrill and the Russia of the Cybersec landscape. And it's, it's one of the reasons why our product actually is very popular amongst the audience because, Being able to digest, like the constant flux of, of threats and, uh, new threat groups and attack vectors and all this kind of stuff. Being able to digest that and create training for your people is, is a really hard thing to do. So, that's where our product comes in and It creates a lot of SEO opportunity and content opportunity as well. And it kind of forces us to exercise prioritization, as an organization and as a content and SEO function. So, yeah, it's, there's no signs of it slowing down. I, I think the, the need will just, will constantly expand as we are seeing.

Phil 27:59

you've got your e-commerce side, you've got your things like cybersecurity. if you're new and you're looking to get into a field, look at areas that are growing, look at areas that need help getting online, that need help being found that maybe were traditionally brick and mortar, I mean, Blockbuster's gone. Netflix took over. Right? It's, it's those kinds of things. Where do you see certain places that are just not gonna exist in a few years from now and they're online? That that's a huge opportunity there to help with that transition.

Hassan ud-deen 28:32

Yeah. And also like leverage your experiences that you've had in previous industries. So before Hack the Box, I think one of the, I dunno if it was a game changer or like a tip, the scales heavily, but one of the things I, I had experienced in was, as I had mentioned previously, was the learning management. software, the B2B SaaS that I worked for, a SaaS software company that sold learning management systems. And, the, the topic revolved around learning and. It kind of bridges nicely to, to the next role, which was about cyber security training and, and learning as well. So there's similar threads, and it shows that, maybe you have some referenceable experiences to, to parlay into your new role. So, uh, I'd encourage people to kind of use that as well and communicate that on interviews and, and within, roles, when talking to a potential, hiring manager or something, and, right about what you're doing. Uh, I think, I think having a little LinkedIn portfolio is a good thing. even though it's always can be challenging to keep up with on a frequent basis. I think that's one of the, the best things to do. Have like a, if you're gonna be super simple, like have a Google Doc, just write something that you're doing, write how it went, and just build that in public and share. And I think that can go a long way as a simple stress-free strategy.

Phil 29:41

Yeah, I think that's great advice. if people don't know that you've done it, they're not gonna know that you did it. And how else? If they're looking for someone who has some experience and expertise and they've been following you, you'd be surprised how quickly people will reach out saying, you know, we'd love for you to consult for us, or, we have this role and you've been working on this same kind of problem we're trying to solve. Do you have some time to talk to someone here?

Hassan ud-deen 30:08

Yeah, totally. Totally.

Phil 30:09

Yeah. Great networking opportunities. Definitely.

Hassan ud-deen 30:12

A hundred percent. Yeah.

Phil 30:14

Well, I appreciate your time today. we don't hear too many perspectives where you start out more in the freelance role, build up that skillset, and then go agency or out, then go in-house. it's a really interesting journey and, I hope your parents are okay with, that you, you didn't tell 'em that's what you're doing, or I don't know if you've told them yet. Maybe they'll find out here when we publish.

Hassan ud-deen 30:34

Yeah, I think that it's going live here. Sorry, mom and dad, if you listen,

Phil 30:38

Again, appreciate your time.

Hassan ud-deen 30:40

cheers, Phil. Just, um, thank you for, for the opportunity and, uh, it's, it's great to chat SEO on content always. I don't often network enough, it's nice to just, just talk, talk, shop, usually on in-house teams you are the main go-to or you only have a weekly check-in here and there. So it's actually quite refreshing to, to talk about our work and, uh, our passion. So thank you for having me on.

Phil 31:00

nice to be able to use some acronyms and people know what you're talking about,

Hassan ud-deen 31:04

True.

Phil 31:04

well, have a great day and you guys can listen to some other interviews we have with other marketers. go ahead and head over to the website or or head over to any of the podcast apps and you'll be able to find us on the opinionated s e o. Thanks and have a great day.